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  #1  
Old 08-22-2018, 08:02 PM
vikesfan vikesfan is offline
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Bumgarner: deGrom deserving of Cy Young

Last weekend in Cincinnati, Madison Bumgarner reclined in the visitor's clubhouse, craned his neck, and witnessed the end of a masterpiece. On the TV was Jacob deGrom, whom Bumgarner will face in a marquee matchup on Thursday at Citi Field, delivering his latest gem in a season full of them. Bumgarner paid attention because the entire baseball world is paying attention to deGrom, whose 1.71 ERA is building him a legitimate case for the National League Cy Young Award despite an 8-7 record.

Bumgarner has had seasons, he admits, where his win-loss record didn't reflect how he felt he'd pitched. What pitcher hasn't? That's part of the reason why Bumgarner welcomed a discussion about it prior to Wednesday's game at Citi Field, during which he expressed his admiration for the Mets' right-hander.

"It's impressive. Going into tomorrow, you know you probably can't give up a run," Bumgarner told MLB.com.

"It's so close with deGrom, [Max] Scherzer and [Aaron] Nola, too, but if I had a [Cy Young] vote, [deGrom is] probably where I'd go with it."

Bumgarner is in something of a unique position to speak on the subject. His Giants teams have always been built around pitching and defense. Not even the three World Series championship clubs were the type to outslug opponents.

Four times in his career, the Giants' offense has ranked lower than the Mets rank this season entering Wednesday's game (21st in runs scored in the Majors). During those seasons -- 2011, '13, and '17-18 -- Bumgarner sits seven games under .500 (32-39) despite a 3.06 ERA.

"I know we get the wins and losses by our name, but you're not winning games without the help of your team," Bumgarner said. "You can lose them [yourself]. But the whole deal is a team effort. I don't think there is any one answer to it. It's not always your fault."

Then there are times, Bumgarner makes sure to point out, when pitchers win because their offense provides in droves. The last time Bumgarner and deGrom matched up, the lefty beat deGrom despite allowing four earned runs in five innings. That game, Aug. 18, 2016, in San Francisco, "wasn't the game either of us were looking for," Bumgarner said. It ended in a 10-7 Giants win.

deGrom, of course, has rarely been afforded such fortune this summer. He's held opponents to three runs or less in 23 straight starts but is 6-7 in those games.

"In his case, I don't think [the record] should affect his candidacy at all," Bumgarner said. "If anybody disagrees with that, they clearly aren't watching the games. I don't think it should, but there is no doubt that it will cost him."
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Old 08-23-2018, 03:55 PM
New York Knight New York Knight is offline
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deGrom took the loss this afternoon despite allowing 1 ER and striking out 10

It's the 1st time in his career he's lost allowing 1 ER and striking out at least 10.

He's the 3rd pitcher to do so this season (Rich Hill, Chris Sale).
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Old 08-23-2018, 04:09 PM
goldengreek goldengreek is online now
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Dude deserves it x 10000

Anyone that still think W/L records matter for pitchers are fucking idiots
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Old 08-23-2018, 04:14 PM
PICKSBYPETE PICKSBYPETE is offline
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are u sure.....
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Old 08-23-2018, 04:23 PM
wayne1218 wayne1218 is offline
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Any Boston fan that thinks Sale started 2 playoff games is an idiot too. I guess they are everywhere here.

No pitcher with less than 13 wins has ever won in a non strike year. I do not think a pitcher with a losing record has ever won either, so I guess wins & losses matter a little bit.

My vote right now would be for Nola. He is 2nd in Era and (15-3) in a pennant race. I would put Scherzer 2 and deGrom 3. Don't worry though, I don't get a vote!
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Old 08-23-2018, 04:37 PM
goldengreek goldengreek is online now
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How many pitchers had losing records with this kids stat.

Wins and loses DO NOT MATTER if you are evaluating a pitcher. If you give up 3 runs of less in 30 starts and you go 5-15 does that mean you suck ??

Smart ppl know what pitching stats matter.
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Old 08-23-2018, 04:40 PM
wayne1218 wayne1218 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengreek View Post

Wins and loses DO NOT MATTER if you are evaluating a pitcher.
Tell that to HOF voters.

They matter because if deGrom was (15-3) it wouldn't even be a debate. It is because of 1 reason and 1 reason only, his (8-8) record. Smart people know that too.
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  #8  
Old 08-23-2018, 05:10 PM
goldengreek goldengreek is online now
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Nolan Ryan, Bert Blyleven,Phill Neikro ...all in the Hall..all barely over .500 in their careers
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  #9  
Old 08-23-2018, 05:14 PM
wayne1218 wayne1218 is offline
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Yes, and none of them have less than 287 wins either. They didn't get in with 100
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  #10  
Old 08-23-2018, 05:16 PM
wayne1218 wayne1218 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne1218 View Post

They matter because if deGrom was (15-3) it wouldn't even be a debate. It is because of 1 reason and 1 reason only, his (8-8) record. Smart people know that too.
You can argue it all you want but this ^^^ is 1000% true. These "Debates" wouldn't be happening if it wasn't.
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  #11  
Old 08-23-2018, 05:27 PM
goldengreek goldengreek is online now
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All I said is he deserves it and should win it..
and that W/L records for pitchers dont mean shit
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  #12  
Old 08-23-2018, 05:31 PM
wayne1218 wayne1218 is offline
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Well, W/L does matter or there wouldn't be a debate here, on ESPN, on MLB Network, on FOX Sports1 or anywhere else. We can each believe what we want I guess.
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  #13  
Old 08-23-2018, 05:37 PM
MtrCtyPimp MtrCtyPimp is offline
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Wins and Losses don't matter. Just like runs and rbi dont mean much as stats when it comes to personal performance.

W/L and runs/rbi are dependent on team performance. The old voters are still overvalue these stats are getting weeded out year by year.

With that said even if we didn't look at wins and losses nobody would have a problem if Scherzer, Nola or DeGrom won.

PEACE
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  #14  
Old 08-23-2018, 05:49 PM
wayne1218 wayne1218 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MtrCtyPimp View Post
Wins and Losses don't matter. Just like runs and rbi dont mean much as stats when it comes to personal performance.

W/L and runs/rbi are dependent on team performance. The old voters are still overvalue these stats are getting weeded out year by year.

With that said even if we didn't look at wins and losses nobody would have a problem if Scherzer, Nola or DeGrom won.

PEACE
Nobody is debating Nola or Scherzer winning because they have the record to go with their stats. The debates everywhere are about deGrom. That wouldn't be happening if he wasn't (8-8). You guys can deny that all you want but it is the truth.
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:06 PM
wayne1218 wayne1218 is offline
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As of right now they have Kluber & Scherzer winning (Today's games included). It is pretty fucked up though because there is no way deGrom finishes lower than 3 IMO.

2018 Cy Young Predictor - AL
RK PLAYER TEAM CYP G GS IP ER K SV SHO W-L ERA VB
1 Corey Kluber CLE 154.7 26 26 174.1 53 166 0 1 16-6 2.74 12
2 Blake Treinen OAK 147.6 52 0 62.0 6 86 32 0 6-2 0.87 0
3 Chris Sale BOS 143.4 23 23 146.0 32 219 0 0 12-4 1.97 12
Edwin Diaz SEA 143.4 62 0 62.0 14 107 48 0 0-3 2.03 0
5 Craig Kimbrel BOS 141.3 51 0 51.0 14 77 37 0 3-1 2.47 12
6 Trevor Bauer CLE 141.1 25 25 166.0 41 214 0 0 12-6 2.22 12
7 Blake Snell TB 138.6 24 24 139.0 32 160 0 0 15-5 2.07 0
8 Justin Verlander HOU 131.8 27 27 169.2 50 223 0 1 12-8 2.65 12
9 Charlie Morton HOU 131.0 25 25 147.1 50 182 0 0 13-3 3.05 12
10 Luis Severino NYY 130.6 26 26 159.1 58 181 0 1 16-6 3.28 0

2018 Cy Young Predictor - NL
RK PLAYER TEAM CYP G GS IP ER K SV SHO W-L ERA VB
1 Max Scherzer WSH 162.5 27 27 181.2 43 244 0 1 16-6 2.13 0
2 Aaron Nola PHI 140.8 26 26 169.0 40 169 0 0 15-3 2.13 0
3 Miles Mikolas STL 120.5 25 25 157.1 49 109 0 1 13-3 2.80 0
4 Jon Lester CHC 117.8 26 26 146.0 59 116 0 0 14-5 3.64 12
5 Zack Greinke ARI 116.8 26 26 162.0 55 165 0 0 12-8 3.06 12
6 Patrick Corbin ARI 114.3 26 26 161.2 57 198 0 1 10-4 3.17 12
7 Jacob deGrom NYM 112.3 26 26 174.0 33 214 0 0 8-8 1.71 0
8 Mike Foltynewicz ATL 107.6 24 24 139.0 42 161 0 1 10-7 2.72 12
9 Felipe Vazquez PIT 106.8 55 0 53.0 16 70 27 0 4-2 2.72 0
10 Jhoulys Chacin MIL 104.1 27 27 151.0 60 122 0 0 13-4 3.58 0

CYP: In The Neyer/James Guide To Pitchers -- co-authored by Bill James and ESPN.com's Rob Neyer presents a method, based on past results, to predict Cy Young balloting. This page provides an in-season snapshot of the Cy Young "race," as figured by the following formula: Cy Young Points (CYP) = ((5*IP/9)-ER) + (SO/12) + (SV*2.5) + Shutouts + ((W*6)-(L*2)) + VB (see below).

VB: Victory Bonus is a 12-point bonus awarded for leading your team to the division championship

Cy Young Winner: Denoted in bold
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Old 08-28-2018, 10:53 PM
New York Knight New York Knight is offline
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Tonight marks the 8th time this year deGrom has pitched at least 7.0 innings and allowed no more than 1 run yet failed to earn the win.

That ties the Mets' own Roger Craig (1963) for the most such starts by any MLB pitcher in a season in the live-ball era.


That's gotta be so frustrating getting no help, ever.
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  #17  
Old 08-28-2018, 10:57 PM
New York Knight New York Knight is offline
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Almost forgot, he drove in the Mets' lone run


Remains 8-8 despite a 1.68 ERA
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  #18  
Old 08-28-2018, 11:22 PM
goldengreek goldengreek is online now
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KID IS An ANIMAL

Best pitcher in baseball hands down right now

There is some crazy stat... I cant remember exactly,,,, I had this years stats in the thread that The MOD locked....

Something to the effect that in his last 50 starts he has given up 2 runs or less in more than half of his starts

Last edited by goldengreek; 08-28-2018 at 11:25 PM.
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  #19  
Old 08-29-2018, 05:39 AM
wayne1218 wayne1218 is offline
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As of 8/29

2018 Cy Young Predictor - AL
RK PLAYER TEAM CYP G GS IP ER K SV SHO W-L ERA VB
1 Blake Treinen OAK 151.6 56 0 66.0 7 89 33 0 6-2 0.95 0
2 Corey Kluber CLE 151.2 27 27 179.2 58 172 0 1 16-7 2.91 12
3 Edwin Diaz SEA 149.6 64 0 64.0 14 108 50 0 0-3 1.97 0
4 Craig Kimbrel BOS 147.7 53 0 53.0 15 81 37 0 4-1 2.55 12
5 Blake Snell TB 147.6 25 25 145.0 33 168 0 0 16-5 2.05 0
6 Chris Sale BOS 143.4 23 23 146.0 32 219 0 0 12-4 1.97 12
7 Trevor Bauer CLE 141.1 25 25 166.0 41 214 0 0 12-6 2.22 12
8 Justin Verlander HOU 138.7 28 28 175.2 53 229 0 1 13-8 2.72 12
9 Luis Severino NYY 138.4 27 27 165.0 60 189 0 1 17-6 3.27 0
10 Carlos Carrasco CLE 136.8 26 25 154.2 58 178 0 0 16-7 3.38 12

2018 Cy Young Predictor - NL
RK PLAYER TEAM CYP G GS IP ER K SV SHO W-L ERA VB
1 Max Scherzer WSH 163.5 28 28 186.2 46 249 0 1 16-6 2.22 0
2 Aaron Nola PHI 155.5 27 27 176.0 41 177 0 0 15-3 2.10 0
3 Zack Greinke ARI 127.0 27 27 168.2 55 171 0 0 13-8 2.93 12
4 Kyle Freeland COL 120.1 27 27 164.1 53 142 0 0 12-7 2.90 12
5 Miles Mikolas STL 119.3 26 26 162.0 53 112 0 1 13-3 2.94 0
6 Jon Lester CHC 118.4 27 27 152.0 62 119 0 0 14-5 3.67 12
7 Jacob deGrom NYM 117.8 27 27 182.0 34 224 0 0 8-8 1.68 0
8 Patrick Corbin ARI 115.0 27 27 168.2 59 207 0 1 10-5 3.15 12
9 Mike Foltynewicz ATL 108.6 25 25 145.0 43 169 0 1 10-8 2.67 12
10 Wade Davis COL 108.4 58 0 54.1 29 62 36 0 2-6 4.80 12
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:49 AM
goldengreek goldengreek is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne1218 View Post
As of 8/29

2018 Cy Young Predictor - AL
RK PLAYER TEAM CYP G GS IP ER K SV SHO W-L ERA VB
1 Blake Treinen OAK 151.6 56 0 66.0 7 89 33 0 6-2 0.95 0
2 Corey Kluber CLE 151.2 27 27 179.2 58 172 0 1 16-7 2.91 12
3 Edwin Diaz SEA 149.6 64 0 64.0 14 108 50 0 0-3 1.97 0
4 Craig Kimbrel BOS 147.7 53 0 53.0 15 81 37 0 4-1 2.55 12
5 Blake Snell TB 147.6 25 25 145.0 33 168 0 0 16-5 2.05 0
6 Chris Sale BOS 143.4 23 23 146.0 32 219 0 0 12-4 1.97 12
7 Trevor Bauer CLE 141.1 25 25 166.0 41 214 0 0 12-6 2.22 12
8 Justin Verlander HOU 138.7 28 28 175.2 53 229 0 1 13-8 2.72 12
9 Luis Severino NYY 138.4 27 27 165.0 60 189 0 1 17-6 3.27 0
10 Carlos Carrasco CLE 136.8 26 25 154.2 58 178 0 0 16-7 3.38 12

2018 Cy Young Predictor - NL
RK PLAYER TEAM CYP G GS IP ER K SV SHO W-L ERA VB
1 Max Scherzer WSH 163.5 28 28 186.2 46 249 0 1 16-6 2.22 0
2 Aaron Nola PHI 155.5 27 27 176.0 41 177 0 0 15-3 2.10 0
3 Zack Greinke ARI 127.0 27 27 168.2 55 171 0 0 13-8 2.93 12
4 Kyle Freeland COL 120.1 27 27 164.1 53 142 0 0 12-7 2.90 12
5 Miles Mikolas STL 119.3 26 26 162.0 53 112 0 1 13-3 2.94 0
6 Jon Lester CHC 118.4 27 27 152.0 62 119 0 0 14-5 3.67 12
7 Jacob deGrom NYM 117.8 27 27 182.0 34 224 0 0 8-8 1.68 0
8 Patrick Corbin ARI 115.0 27 27 168.2 59 207 0 1 10-5 3.15 12
9 Mike Foltynewicz ATL 108.6 25 25 145.0 43 169 0 1 10-8 2.67 12
10 Wade Davis COL 108.4 58 0 54.1 29 62 36 0 2-6 4.80 12


This is garbage. Dont waste your time with whatever crap is putting these out

They have Sale 6th and he is a -400 fav to win it. Three relievers in the top 4 ...ok...lol
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  #21  
Old 08-29-2018, 08:08 AM
goldengreek goldengreek is online now
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24 straight starts giving up 3 runs or less
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:12 AM
chibob chibob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengreek View Post
This is garbage. Dont waste your time with whatever crap is putting these out

They have Sale 6th and he is a -400 fav to win it. Three relievers in the top 4 ...ok...lol
example

wade davis at 10 is a joke

2-6 WL, 6 BS, ERA, 4.80
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  #23  
Old 08-29-2018, 09:27 AM
wayne1218 wayne1218 is offline
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All that really matters is if they have the winners right. Bill James is pretty respected in MLB and we will see at the end of the season if the formula he uses is right.
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Old 08-29-2018, 11:31 AM
goldengreek goldengreek is online now
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Arent you going to swear at him and his formula for having Sale 6th ? Tell him to go clime back in his hole ?

Respected or not If the books have Sale at -400 ..I would rather trust them
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Old 08-29-2018, 12:15 PM
chibob chibob is offline
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Heard this

"deGrom's opponents have ERA of 2.53

explains 8-8 record
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